Conversations in Calais: Mathilda Della Torre on Refugee Activism from Calais to Ben & Jerry’s Activism

Mathilda Della Torre is a human rights advocate and campaigner whose work explores migration, displacement and the power of storytelling to challenge narratives. Through her work with Creating Conversations from Calais, she has helped create spaces for dialogue around the experiences of refugees, communities and the complex realities behind the headlines.

In this episode of The Human Frame, Mathilda joins me to discuss the realities of the refugee crisis in Calais, the differences between the French and UK approaches to migration, and the ways refugees are often portrayed and used as scapegoats within political and media narratives. We explore the importance of moving beyond statistics and stereotypes to recognise the human stories behind displacement.

Mathilda also reflects on the growing role of technology in migration systems, including the use of artificial intelligence in asylum processes, and the questions this raises around fairness, accountability and human dignity. We discuss her work with Ben & Jerry’s activism on refugee rights, exploring how campaigning, conversations and collective action can challenge injustice and create more compassionate approaches to migration.

Together, we explore the importance of listening, questioning dominant narratives and creating spaces where more nuanced conversations about refugees and human rights can take place.

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Host: Łucja Hawking

Music: Yago Cardalda 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:15

Welcome to the Human Frame Podcast with me, Woodsia Hawking, where I talk to incredible people that I've met along different industries to talk about art as a form of activism. Today I'm joined by Matilda della Torre. So Matilda Della Torre works at the intersection of design, community and social justice with a focus on co-creating projects alongside local communities. Her practice explores how design can support the transition toward a more sustainable, fair and just society. She's the founder and author of Conversations from Calais, a global poster project that seeks to rehumanize the refugee experience through direct personal storytelling. Matilda is also currently the UK activism manager at Ben and Jerry's, where she works on campaigns and initiatives that connect grassroots movements with the wider public engagement, using the platform to advocate for social change, which I think is one of the coolest jobs in this industry that you could point in. It is good.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

It is good. I'm very lucky.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Cool. So let's let's just jump straight in. Um what drew you to working in solidarity with people seeking safety and and refuge?

SPEAKER_00 1:36

Um yeah, I wouldn't say to be honest, anything in particular. Um I come from a background with my family, especially my mum, who always like encouraged us for us to do volunteering and to kind of look for experiences that way locally. Um, and then when I was in uni, I was studying here in London doing my master's in graphic design. Um and it was at the time where um the Calais, well the so-called Calais jungle had been dismantled, but there was still so much in the headlines, which to be honest, compared to now, was probably less, but at the time felt like um a lot talking specifically about Calais and northern France and Dunkirk and people coming here. Um, and I saw quite a few organizations distributing food and clothes and stuff there, um, and just thought it couldn't possibly happen in France, um, and so close to um to kind of where I lived, being in the UK, but also being French. Um, so that kind of drew me to just going. So I always say that I was motivated out of curiosity more than anything else, um, to just see and understand for myself what was happening. And then, as cliche as it sounds, I came back and just decided I couldn't really look away from that and that I didn't really want to look away from that, um, and then slowly started incorporating um kind of a social justice lens into my work and what I wanted to do moving forward.

SPEAKER_01 3:25

And you had you spent some time in Calais as well. Um, how did that shape your understanding of maybe borders but also policies, but also humanizing the experience? Because obviously, when you when you see what's happening, like like a face value, it's yeah, I think it hits you a lot differently.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

For sure. I think I would give a very different answer now than the answer I would have given you at the time. I think the answer I would have given you at the time was just the extreme luck and privilege that I was just to be born on the right side. Right side, I mean that it very much in a way of a side where for now I haven't had to seek asylum and I'm born with a passport that can pretty much take me anywhere in the world and have that safety and have that have that huge amount of privilege. So kind of realizing, yeah, I was born in a side of the world when right now this is really working out quite well for me. But seeing the complete other side of that by people who were just born at a time where um things weren't weren't working out, um, and what that meant, and the complete way that this was constructed by humans, mostly by the West, and by colonialism and capitalism, and all of the structures that we continue um to thrive on in order to maintain um safety, I would say. And that at the time it shaped me in a way that I wanted to do better and find a way to combine design to work on these issues and talk about these issues and not just create art for the sake of it. I am not at all criticizing the fact that we need to create art for the sake of it, but for me I didn't want to do that as kind of the way that I would spend most of my time. And then what I would say, how it has shaped me now, is a complete disgust and I'd say just mistrust in the concept of borders and how completely useless and completely um harmful they are, and the amount of yeah, harm and murder that they cause every single day, as well as the amount of um resources that get spent into maintaining those borders. I mean, if we talk specifically about Calais, the amount of tax money that goes both from a French side and a British side is huge. In order to prop up a system um that is actually not benefiting anyone. Um and I think this will it's probably something we'll talk about later as well, but the complete need to actually prop up these borders to have a group that we continue on scapegoating and blaming for all of the failures that this government continue and many governments continue to uphold.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

Well, I'm just really curious also, what is the is there any difference between the the British government responses to it and the French government responses to it?

SPEAKER_00 6:29

Yeah. So this has changed and continues to shift, you know, every year, I would say. Um obviously Kelly and Dunkirk are on French land, right? So very, if you think about it very practically, the kind of police and all of the people working there will be um kind of French government um funded police. However, everything that then happens in the channel is an in-between of France and the UK. So you've got border control on both sides, which gets you know managed both by French and um UK entities to manage that border and push people back or arrest people once they're on the channel. What we have also seen so much of in the past year is a want to collaborate on finding a way not to find a solution to what is one of the deadliest crossings in the world by sea, but in order to stop more people from coming here via the channel on boats. So, one of the policies that was put in place last year was the one-in, one-out policy, which basically sends people back to France. We have seen the failure of this. I think all of this is around the idea of deterrence tactics, which are saying that if we make borders look more and more intimidating, more harmful, and more dangerous, people will not want to cross them. As we have now seen, because research and stats show this again and again, this will not put people off when they are literally fleeing wars. I think we can understand that more and more with the more genocides and wars that we are seeing escalate all around the world. So that's the kind of responsibility that is very much um shared between two countries. And I would say both countries are completely responsible for the deaths that we see in the channel. Last week there was four people died in the channel. It's happening again and again. And I actually would like to refrain from saying died in the channel, were killed in the channel, because to me, if you have had to take such an extreme measure to get to the UK, I think we have a responsibility to say that we have killed those people.

SPEAKER_01 8:44

And it brings back to like a lot of the campaigning that you well I mean the sector does on bringing more or allowing more safe routes, right? The disabling channel crossings happening because obviously, if there are less safe routes, then people are gonna find other ways because, as you said, they are desperate, and we are privileged enough. I mean, I always say this as an immigrant in the UK as well, like I was privileged enough to come here and not have any problems, and god forbid anything does happen, like a war or anything, and we end up having to seek safety. I would hope other countries would open borders. Um so no, I do think sometimes it's a very much of a Western privilege type of thing. 100% because obviously when we had Ukraine happened, it would the uh borders were open. So again, I think there are a lot of racist and western barriers, let's say, in who we do let in, which is just it's just ridiculous.

SPEAKER_00 9:44

Absolutely, and I think we're seeing this propped up by the media so much. Um, I used to work in a charity and I very much saw the response would differ when we would put communications out about families and women and children trying to cross the border, or what the media would then portray as black and brown young men. We are so uncomfortable with, I think in general, but in this topic in having different versions of a story and different narratives. We want to have a very black and white narrative that says, primarily like we saw from Ukraine, like right, like white families and women and children who will be able to adhere to this culture and these traditions in whatever way we define that, because obviously we're not gonna open the can of worms of what has shaped these traditions. This culture obviously comes from immigration that has been happening since humans have been here. Um, we are not able to kind of hold these two narratives of yes, we have families, but we also have men. Why do we have young men primarily that cross? That is because it is pretty much close to impossible to survive in Calais as a family as a child and to then do that extremely dangerous crossing. I mean, I saw it when I was on the ground myself. You have times where people are trying to get into a lorry and you have to run in a roundabout between cars, jump in a lorry, hold yourself up, and then close that door behind you. A kid would never be able to do that physically. I, as a young woman, would never physically be able to do that, right? So again, I think it brings back this idea that yeah, there's a lack of safe routes, but there's also a lack here of um wanting to understand why we are seeing particular groups cross the channel more than not, which I think is why the Ukraine uh the kind of the war in Ukraine, but also the way we were able to package, um, and I don't mean this in I hope it doesn't come off in a disrespectful way, but the story that we were able to tell around Ukraine was much easier to sell to an average British person, um, which is why we have seen such a difference in response, even if we compare it to what's happening now in Sudan, right? Or what's happening now in Palestine and Gaza. It looks very different.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

It does, and as you said, with with men crossing fast, it's because a lot of the time, like you said, it's more risk, but if they do make it, then they can apply for like I mean, to build a foundation so that then wives, children, sisters, all of that kind of thing that outside a family could come over so that they can come legally because they've already claimed asylum in a way. So it when you look into it as an actual bigger picture, rather than just you know looking at media blowing up that it's all these men coming over, and unfortunately, a lot of the narratives are always oh to rape every every woman in the UK, for example, right? You know, it's just uh such a look of ignorance um rather than seeing the bigger picture of why people actually do come over here and the dangerous journey. Like no one wants to do that journey, it's they're forced to do it because they have no other choice. Um great, let's go on to the next question. So, your book Conversation for Some Calais centres Real Voices and Experiences. What felt most important to hold on when you were creating that specific piece of work?

SPEAKER_00 13:11

So, for me, I'd say it was two things. Again, it's I try and answer questions about that project in the way I think I would have answered them then because it's now quite old. I think I would approach this kind of campaign and project now very differently. Um, but at the time I wanted to maintain two things. First of all, I wanted to maintain the perspective of the conversations and the posters from the perspective of a volunteer like myself. Um, and that was really important because I wanted to make sure that I was not saying or trying to communicate that I was rewriting a so-called refugee story. Um, I do not have that lived experience, I do not have um the right to be able to say that. For me, the reason why all the posters grammatically start um the same way with you and then you didn't want you asked, you XYZ, is because I wanted to make sure it was a conversation that came from my perspective and other volunteers like myself who submitted conversations. I think that is also important because we do not often see the volunteer perspective being told in the media. Um, we very often have journalists that come and visit a camp for a day and then decide to write a whole story about it. Some of the time it's you know done very well and with respect and with real quotes and stats, but most of the time I'd say it's a pretty um kind of limited view on what it's actually like to um to have to live and survive in in a camp. The best option would always be speaking to someone with lived experience, but I think the second best option to that and a resource that I think we really need to utilize is the volunteers and the organizations working with these people. So that was the first thing. And the second thing for me was to not use any visuals or not use any images or not use any photos of people or places that I was talking about. So the posters, as I'm sure you've seen, are so simple. It is a white background with black text, that is everything that is on it, and to me that's very important because I think in a world where, first of all, we are inundated by images and photos on the streets, because obviously these posters lived on the streets before anywhere else, before in a book or social media. I hope that would make them stand out, but also I hope that that would encourage people to imagine faces themselves of who was having these conversations and to imagine themselves the locations where these places were happening, and not to create more of a stereotype of what the people would look like having these conversations were. So I guess it's important to note that I didn't go to Calais to start this project. It was a much more natural. I went back and forth just to volunteer with different organizations like Refugee Community Kitchen, and then I, when I was back in the UK, developed this project just from notebooks and sketchbooks that I had kept from the time there. But I think what stayed with me was, and again, it's gonna sound very boring and very cliche, but that we all had the same worries and the same thoughts. Obviously, in terms of safety and in terms of trauma, there's a lot that I could not and do not relate to now, and I'm so fortunate to be able to say that. But in terms of everyday thoughts on like the food that we serve being not salty enough, or the Wi-Fi being really shit when we brought a generator with Wi-Fi, or um shoes being too big, and therefore not comfortable enough to be able to run all of those kinds of things were very relatable feelings that I hoped these posters could remind people because I think we have such an othering, a problem with othering, and a problem with us and them, which is obviously held by this government and many governments and the media. But my way of trying to move away from that was not to kind of very obviously call it out, but just to remind people the things that actually we had in common. Um, because I think as soon as we start seeing us as a bigger us than just who we live with and who we are related to, um, that's when we can start having bigger conversations of what aid looks like, what open borders look like, and what true um kind of I guess systemic change really looks like.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

And just reminding everyone that we're all human, like we all have these things because we're all human, like obviously that like I don't know, you know, we all want safety and be with our family and protect our family. So it's again, I always think you know, how can you not have compassion or empathy for someone in those shoes? Because it it could be you, in a sense, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:29

For sure, and I think in that it's important we struggle to relate to that again because we live in a world where we are told that things are being taken away from us because they are taken by refugees who come here and take our doctor's appointments, take our jobs, and you're right, also sometimes take our girls and rape them. That is what we are being told in and out every single day. So that is why we don't feel that way. I think I want to make sure that people understand why they are fed that story, and that is not on people, that is on a government and media that we continue to prop up and that very sadly pretty much runs this country, I'd say.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

Completely, and I think you know, it's not it's not unique to refugee stuff as well. I think it's there's so many things like what I mean, the open Instagram, whatever, it's the I think AI and misinformation is another thing that's really big at the moment. I don't know whether it's crept up into refugee work. I know in terms of you know, um uh governments using it to see whether someone is actually an asylum seeker into grant asylum claims, I think that's where it's creeping in. Yeah. But other than that, do you know where else it is it might affect?

SPEAKER_00 19:44

Um, I know that it's and I don't know if it's happening yet or if it was going to happen, but I know that to tell people, to look at people's evidence of claiming asylum, it was going to be used. Which I know that for a minute, if you hear that, which is what you said, you might think, oh well, fair enough, if you're gonna use AI to help people get an answer before so they don't have to wait three years, but instead three months, amazing, like that's what we want is a more efficient system. However, I think what we need to remember is who is programming that AI that is very much a government and a home office who doesn't want to claim for people to be given their asylum and who doesn't look at evidence in a human way, right? So already it's a dehumanizing process. If we then completely remove humans from it, what does that leave us and who is going to then be granted for what? Um, specifically because every single case is completely different. So I know it's crept into that. I think in the way of misinformation, I think that it's crept into everywhere, to be honest. I'd say everything. Um, but I don't think it's, and again, this may I may be completely corrected for this, but from my kind of experience and understanding, it maybe hasn't had as big as a um kind of the conversation hasn't been as big around it as maybe in other sectors.

SPEAKER_01 21:08

Yeah, I think it should be a lot bigger to be honest. I think yeah, the the issue with the review to use sector is the fact that there's so many hardways to jump, and it's just adding another thing, it's just oh god, it's just another thing to campaign against. Because I know also I watched this documentary one time and it was with the use of language how computers were saying no because people were speaking too good English. Yeah, but the issue is we live in a multicultural society now. If people do, for example, if you're a refugee from Sudan, you're gonna speak very good English because Sudan was a colony of the UK, so that's why they're gonna speak great English, and just for a computer saying no, you're not a refugee because your English is perfect.

SPEAKER_00 21:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:48

Just blows my mind completely.

SPEAKER_00 21:50

Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

But I think it's definitely something that I think the sector should look more into as well. Um you said you kept journals as well whilst you were in. In Calais. How how yeah, how how did that did it help you with it? Was it did you just want to in terms of just remember your experience or yeah, what was the purpose of it?

SPEAKER_00 22:12

Um I am an illustrator, I studied illustration, so I have always kept sketchbooks and notebooks from the age of like 10. So it's just something that I used to do very naturally. I do it a lot when I travel, and for me that was go it feels strange to say traveling, but when I am in a different environment, usually this is what I do in order to remember things and places and moments, but also to look closer at what is happening. I just think it helps my brain digest more what I'm seeing or what I'm experiencing. So I did it really just for that. There was no thought in what it could lead to next. Um, but then when I came back is when they became really useful for me to be able to really look at that, those experiences. Um, yeah, but I'd say it came from a pretty natural uh place.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

And when you started, when you came back and started filtering through it, was there like a specific um I don't know, experience that stood out that made you want to do it? Or was it just like what sparked the idea basically?

SPEAKER_00 23:20

Yeah, good question. Um what sparked the idea is that I had written some of the conversations I'd had with people when I was there, and I had written one conversation which was very much in the format, obviously handwritten, but in the format that you see these conversations now. And that the reason why I went towards that links to what I was saying before with images, I didn't want to draw people because I didn't want to give away any indication of identity for people's protection and for people's privacy. Um, and words felt like the most straightforward way of doing that, um, which was very new to me because I wouldn't say that I was a writer. I have always found images easier for me than words, um, but that really kind of helped me try to find a new way, I guess just to tell a story. Um, but it was yeah, just from one page I had written it. It was this conversation with a man um who had been there for a really long time. He was from Iran actually and talked about pomegranates a lot. And I love pomegranates, so I had written it down and um yeah, it just sparked the whole project.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

No, it's like I said, it's just great to see those everyday experiences and everyday conversations that people have, and you know, whether it's food, food's a great way to kind of connect, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 24:50

Yeah, for sure. The book that I then worked on, which has a lot of these conversations as well as essays from different people in in this sector and who have experienced, there's a whole chapter on food. Um, and not only the connection that food can bring, but also the stories that it brings out in people, I think because it is so related to memory and is one, like we talked about, is one of those things where everyone has a story around food or lack of food or missing food or disliking food, which makes it really easy to talk about. I also think when there's a language barrier, you are seeing what you were talking about, and we are so much better than we think are communicating with facial expressions, with sounds, with hands, with gestures, that food just helps doing that. I think we can all find a way to communicate if we like something that we're eating or not, so it just really helps to um yeah to build connection.

SPEAKER_01 25:51

And did you find that also there was a lot of language barriers?

SPEAKER_00 25:56

Um yeah, I mean, there was people from you know all over. I think in Calais, um, the languages I heard the most were Arabic, Farsi, Tigrina. Um, I heard a lot of Italian actually, because quite a lot of um Eritrean and Ethiopian people that I'd met have spent quite a lot of time kind of in Italy took it through to the UK. I mean, people spoke but Turkish um way more languages than um than I speak. So I'd say there was definitely language barrier, but what I always say is there was so much solidarity between groups. So in the Sudanese community, there was always one person who spoke Italian or French and English and therefore was able to translate with others, and there was so much collaboration between different um kind of organizations trying to find who would be able to communicate with who. So I didn't find it a huge, a huge barrier. I would to be honest, I would say it was more of a uh kind of a blessing than anything.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

Completely, and as you said with solidarity, it's just also amazing to see how people interact and how you do end up communicating in a way, especially when it is a when it feels like a safe um place to approach and speak to people because then you then you want to kind of try and communicate even more, don't you? You said you mentioned a bit about this, but when you approached sharing the stories, how did you ensure that it was really like respectful, collaborative, and led by obviously the stories themselves as well and the people that that you were you were talking about rather than it being for for a more I don't want to say I don't want to say like a selfish game because it's not a selfish game at all.

SPEAKER_00 27:46

Yeah, it's um I mean one of the basic things that I said is privacy, so they're all completely anonymous, both from a volunteer perspective as well as from the displaced communities that people talk to, so they're completely anonymous. I don't think you'd be able to tell who really anyone is because a lot of them were actually repeated by different people as well. Because, like we said, there were some of the same concerns and worries and thoughts and reflections. In terms of it being collaborative, I'm gonna be honest with you, I don't think it was, and this is why I say that right now I would I wouldn't create this project again today. Um, it didn't come with a collaboration of people with lived experience, so I wrote down these stories and I anonymized them and I changed them a bit, but because I was going and leaving and coming back, and because these were old notes that I had taken in a sketchbook, like I said, I wasn't going back to the people and asking, is it okay for me to use these stories? I did go back after having to start like started this project and had various conversations with people there about the project, and they were all very appreciative of it and very grateful, but it it wasn't co-created. It a hundred percent wasn't. Or it was co-created, I guess you could say with other volunteers, yes, but not with people with lived experience. I wouldn't say it's I still think there is value in the creation of it, and I still think it was a powerful project, but I yeah, I don't think I would create it again today because it's not completely aligned with the way that I that I work now.

SPEAKER_01 29:18

But it does give you a taste of what it's it's like in Catalan because as you said, so many people hear about the jungle, what the what the news says, all that kind of stuff, and doesn't hear about the actual human experiences. So it's it's really hard to get the balance right because for sure. You don't want to put anyone in danger to them not to be able to cross or get their blame, but then you obviously still want to share the stories.

SPEAKER_00 29:42

Yeah, and I think what is really important is like I meet people all the time who are like, I have refugee status now, all I want to do is move on from this. I don't want to work around this, I don't want to tell my story again and again. Like I want to talk about going to the pub and seeing my friends and sitting in the sun in the same way we do. So I also think we have a role and responsibility because of the amount of privilege that we hold to tell those stories, right? And I think we need to find advocates because there are so many advocates who want to tell this story, but I also never want us to assume as a sector that people with lived experience should have to tell their story. So it makes the balance to hit, exactly like you said, very hard, I find. I think is a hard, is a hard balance to hit where it feels mutually um kind of fair and beneficial from both sides, right? And I think sometimes we get it right, sometimes we don't. Again, I think this project had its value and has its value still today, but it needs to be used as a tool that then allows people to really hear from people with lived experience, which is why the book has chapters from people with lived experience. We're able to talk about it from a perspective that I never will.

SPEAKER_01 31:09

How would you want the book to be used?

SPEAKER_00 31:13

Um, for me, it was a way of creating an archive that would outstand social media and kind of the way that social media, you know, is an end-or scroll now more than ever. Again, when I started this project, social media looked very different to now. I don't think Reels existed. So being able to create something that wasn't just on social media, but also primarily something that didn't just live on walls because some of the posters that I put up, some stayed up for months, some stay up for two days. So that was part of the project, and it was really important, I think, for me to start and say these stories need to live in our streets and take over that public space. But in order to create something that people could go back to and refer to and use again and again, um, is how I wanted the book to be used. I don't think there was a super specific audience. I always say that schools and universities are always a space that I hope want to use this book as a resource, but otherwise, it was a way of just keeping record and also being able to say no matter what happens in Calais and in northern France, we have a record of the damage and atrocities that we allow to happen, and I think it's important that yeah, this kind of goes down in history and is remembered. And I hope that's I mean, if we really think about it, for me, it's one of the things I'm like, okay, well, that's a legacy that I leave behind the work that I've been doing.

SPEAKER_01 32:47

And it's very important to do that because, as you said, you know, documenting and having specific uh stories and instances that happen can then change things for the better in a in a way, right? To make sure that people see the mistakes that were made so that they're not made again. I mean, it takes very, very long time for that to happen, if if it's all, but you know, it's it's good to have something to then showcase or you know, just to show that things haven't changed for a very long time. For sure. I want to talk more about your activism and responsibility at uh Ben and Jerry's as well. So how do you ensure that your work remains accountable and rooted in the communities you speak about within like a corporate organization?

SPEAKER_00 33:35

Yeah, so to me, I think first of all, to kind of credit the work that has been done at Ben and Jerry's before I joined, I've been here for three years, so you know there's lots of people before me who did this work and who continue to do this work in different countries around the world. Ben and Jerry's social activism model has always been rooted in working with grassroots organization and be partner-led, which means that every campaign we work on, every story we tell, every piece of content we create is ideated and kind of co-produced, obviously to different you know levels with people with lived experience or at least with people that work very closely with the people that we are talking about and the communities that we're um trying to stand with. The way I do that in my work is putting co-creation at the center of everything that I do, um, making sure that we work with really grassroots organizations. So I don't really work with the UNHCRs and the kind of Oxfam or Save the Children. For me, it's really important to work with organizations that are really at the forefront of what is happening and on the ground. And then I think the other thing, apart from kind of the obvious things of you know, getting feedback and consulting and asking for opinion and all of that, is being really honest in trying to improve the way we do it with every campaign. Like if I look back at some of the campaigns I did at the beginning of my time here, they had value, there was value in some of what they were doing, but I also think um bringing basically erasing myself as much as possible is what I want to achieve. So making sure that I am a connector, but that I can kind of remove my voice and my opinion as much as possible is what I strive to do more and more with every campaign. Oh, that's a good question. Um I'd say probably one of the last campaigns that we did, which was around asylum accommodation. Um, it was a really hard topic because, as you know, hotels in the UK, the so-called hotels, are a hot topic in the media, but they're also a really big issue that needs to be dealt with. That, you know, people are housed in asylum hotels that are, I'd say, pretty much prisons. Um, the living conditions inside are, yeah, sometimes even worse to prisons, people have curfews. Um, the amount of discrimination that happens from staff and from the companies running it is pretty horrific. We wanted to create a campaign that was targeting MPs and kind of telling them to speak out against this, but in order to help people understand what it is like to be in those hotels, because I think a lot of it is what we're talking about at the beginning, just this misunderstanding of what it's like to seek asylum in the UK right now, and if you're fed what you are fed by mainstream media, it's gonna look very different to the reality of it. We recreated um out of a trailer basically what a room would look like. It's very realistic. People go in, they hear testimonials from people that are live have lived in one of those rooms. It has a screen behind like a fake window where you see the protests that have been happening outside hotels, which we're seeing more and more. You're you're seeing bunk beds, you're seeing different details that really bring together what I hope is that experience of being in one of those rooms, and then I hope help people understand that what we're being sold by the media is very different to the reality that people have to put up with.

SPEAKER_01 37:27

And what were the um responses to that from people that that went and saw it?

SPEAKER_00 37:32

First of all, for people with lived experience, it was what I think I remember. We worked with an organization called Conversation Over Borders, who are a great organization in the UK, um, that defend the right of people seeking asylum here and of refugees. There, people with lived experience said that I think the term that was used was positively triggering, kind of talking about how close it was to what they had lived through and what they had experienced, which is why it's a project that I wanted to highlight. Because to me, if something is that truthful, I would see is a true kind of representation of the co-creation that I want to be doing, which obviously looks very different from conversations from Calais. Um, and the other response from people was kind of the absolute disbelief of what this was. And then I say the third response, which I also think is important to note, is people saying, I know this is horrific, but what do we do about it and what can I do about it? Um, when we very much see the government profiting and specifically huge, three huge corporations in the UK, Clear Spring, Circo, and Mears making billions out of operating these hotels in a really dreadful way. So, kind of also the absolute, like kind of I'd say hopelessness that people feel around this topic, which is completely fair enough, but helping them understand that you know there's actions they can take to be able to speak out against this.

SPEAKER_01 39:03

And those actions can be anything from like writing to your MP. I mean, I know it sounds really like every single action is like write to your MP and all those kinds of things, but it's also having those small conversations, you know, with with people every day, just to change people's perspectives, and you know, if people do hear personal stories, this is why I think personal stories shape so many people's opinions because you hear the rawness, the empathy, the empathy, the vulnerability, and it's very hard to turn your nose on that versus you know, just something that you heard or misunderstood or miss saw on on social media, right? It's very easy to dismiss that because it's it's very objective rather than personal and and and and more raw, I want to say. Um yeah, also I was just thinking um in terms of how does responsible advocacy also look like when working on these kinds of issues? You mentioned a bit with the people who have lit experience, but are there any other ways as well?

SPEAKER_00 40:07

Um I think it's what I see as important is the constant like questioning of what I'm doing um and how I'm doing it. I think we very much work in a pretty burnt out uh uh difficult sector where there haven't been many wins. We have a huge industry like the media. I know I keep bringing them up, but I mean we I am appalled every single day at the way that mainstream media uses refugees as a scapegoat every day. Um yeah, we have a whole industry propped up completely against us and trying to stop us from by the way, saying pretty basic things, which are refugees should be respected within their own rights and the human rights that all that we all have access to. We're not saying pretty that's I wouldn't say that's well right now it feels quite radical to say, but I'd say if we really go back to the basics, it's a pretty unradical thing to say, maybe even conservative. Um so knowing that we are working in those um in that sector and in those conditions, it's making sure that we still take the time to question what we are doing and why we're doing and looking at impact, um, which is really hard because, like you say, people are tired of writing to their MPs, people have such like activism fatigue because there's no trust in government, there's no trust in MPs, there's barely even trust in councils. Like if you look at the local elections coming up, we already know that there's gonna be a pretty big percentage of people who don't vote because they just feel like there's no point. Um, obviously, please vote and register to vote and do all that. Um but where are we able to still find the time to evaluate ourselves and what we're doing, I think is really crucial to make sure that we stay true to the communities that we're trying to represent. And I think the second point I'd like to make is also the importance of collaborating with other sectors. You know, when you talked about that story of yes, young men are coming here being represented as men that are coming to rape our daughters. Okay, so let's talk to people working in women's rights, let's talk in people working in child sexual abuse, let's talk in all of those things. Another, you know, evident link is the climate emergency is here, it is causing a global displacement that is inherently going to happen no matter what we decide to do from tomorrow. So, are we working with those other um sectors to be able to tell a wider story and get people to connect the dots? And I think just because I've mentioned elections, that's what the Greens in the UK are doing so well is the Green Party is really saying who is responsible for all of these issues. It is the billionaires that are literally making more than we can even imagine in one hour of work. Um, where do we see those connections happen? I think that's what we really owe to the communities we're representing.

SPEAKER_01 43:35

And the problem with climate refugees as well is you know, they don't have legal rights in the same way they're not mentioned in a refugee convention, all of those kinds which obviously shows limitations of a refugee convention. But I think some people said they could be mentioned in the and other parts of the placement. But I think that, as you said, is going to become a massive topic and a massive other issue where people don't even want to flee, but they have to flee. Because of the global warming that we're all forming and causing, right? And they're suffering the consequences. So that is just another whole. I'm quite worried about how that's gonna plan out. I'm not gonna lie. Because if the responses to people fleeing bored are as they are, what's gonna be when it when it's yeah, because your your your island's flooded or or whatever. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:26

And I think that's so hard for us to do because it holds us to hold, it gets us to hold up a meritorious house instead of way, hold on what is causing that climate emergency, what who is responsible for that, which obviously our governments right now are not um keen on doing.

unknown 44:42

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 44:43

Since they're not even doing that for the wars that they're causing and funding.

SPEAKER_01 44:47

If also reform and all of those get into power as well, I just don't see even uh, you know, with the misinformation of global warming not being a thing as well, which a lot of people do still take into account. So if if you know you don't believe global warming is a thing, you're not gonna believe that climate refugees are it's just yeah, no, I'm worried about, I'm very worried about all of this, but but this is the thing, it should be preventative, right? You should be able to do it now, set everything in place so when it does happen, we have all the measures in place in order to act rather than what a lot of governments do, and not o again, not only in the refugee sector, but in many different things. It's you wait until a catastrophe has happened in order to act when we could have prevented and saved people. Sure, a hundred percent. Which is something that's just really annoying. But anyway, moving on. Uh, do you see storytelling as a way of shifting power? And if so, how do you think that can also uh be an important part?

SPEAKER_00 45:48

A hundred percent. Um, I think stories shape everything we do, everything we are, everything we think, everything we see. I think you know, storytelling um goes back to way before you and me and us. I think there's no denying that. I think the way that it can help shift narratives is exactly like you said, that right now people are not looking at the facts, they're not looking at the information that scientists and researchers are putting out. And I think that's because it feels so far away from them because a lot of the time it hasn't reached them yet, and people already have enough kind of worries and very fair worries and concerns that allow them to even themselves live, you know, a kind of joyful and just um everyday life. So I think stories are there to be able to illustrate, like we were saying before, the common ground that we have between between each other, and if it's not common ground, then the understanding of different stories and um yeah, different narratives. I think they're super, super crucial, and we're seeing that more and more because we're seeing, I mean, reform have got a great story. It is so easy for them to tell the story of stop the boats and the refugees will, you know, be gone and then we'll have more money for you, and all will be great. That's a really easy story to sell. So I think even in that, we have lots of learning to do from um the people we disagree with in terms of how they're telling their story.

SPEAKER_01 47:30

Yeah, again, very worrying, isn't it? I feel like with Nigel Farage, he's he always has a very easy and easy story. There's no complications, it's very catchy. Yeah. And that's what people go for. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 47:45

But then as soon as you say, okay, so how will that work? Where is this resource? Why is there no resource now? What happens to the other communities you're not looking after in this country, such as people experiencing homelessness, people, all of that, then there's obviously nothing to it. Um, but again, that's where we see the power of just telling a story.

SPEAKER_01 48:04

Well, exactly, because it's it just is very much what it is a face value, and people don't dig deeper. Like when Brexit happened, I doubt people thought that they had would have a limit on via going to the to Europe, for example, right? Getting a visa to go to Europe. I think it sounds absolutely ridiculous to have to get a visa to but anyway. That's the world we live in now. Um, I just want to close with last last um maybe slightly more hopeful question. Um what would you see as a more compassionate and just system for people seeking refuge and maybe how people also take in the stories that we do share with whether it is through art or or any other media as well.

SPEAKER_00 48:48

I think in terms of how people take in stories, is whatever works with people with any story that they want to take in, right? Like if you like film, watch a film about this topic. If you like reading, read a book about this, it's really kind of tailoring people to what works for them, and there's so much out there in order to yeah, have enough to go around for all of those mediums and all those different ways people take in information. In terms of what a compassionate asylum system looks like, it's hard. I find this question hard because I hate the way that I will answer it, which will be a very not radical way of looking at this, because I feel like right now I struggle to even imagine a future where you know people are able to move and we have abolished borders, which is ultimately what I would say. I think, in terms of directly, what we need to do is is very simple. First of all, is allowing people to work once they are here seeking asylum. That is like just if we're talking about like easy wins that we can do right now, let's do it. It literally benefits everyone. Um, it's getting people to use their skills, it's adding to the workforce, which is so desperately needed in the UK and in so many countries in Europe and around the world, it's you know boosting the economy and all of that. I mean, something else for me is thinking about how else we house people, how people should be housed in communities, very similarly to how we did this for Ukraine. The Ukrainian scheme worked so well in housing so many people, we could be doing that instead of using these horrific um so-called hotel asylum accommodation um centres, which are pretty much prisons, as I said. Um, and then a really obvious one is stop funding wars, stop investing in wars, stop investing in displacement of people. We are causing displacement and then saying that we don't want that displacement or if we don't want to deal with it. So I think going to the to the core of why people are fleeing is important in our role in that. And I think more broadly to me, in terms of what compassion looks like and what people can we can obviously take action to try and you know spur those things on, but I think to me is like I said before, is expanding that definition of us and our people and our community. Um, our community means everyone that is around us, not just the people we live with, and that comes with disagreeing, that comes with different opinions, different cultures, and that is something that I think would help us in realizing that we're actually all fighting for really the same things.

SPEAKER_01 51:52

And just being more of that reflective thing, right? Seeing what how affects you, how you're involved, all those kind of things are really important as well to become a more into under just even more understanding of of what is happening because it does you know when you form an opinion when you when it's an uninformed opinion is is always quite funny to me. For sure. Thank you so much for having this super important conversation with me. It's been really great to like understand more about the book and how yeah, what really involved and shaped this kind of experience because you know it's it's stuff that we we see often on the news, as you mentioned, but actually speaking to someone who has been there and has interacted with people that are going through this these difficulties is I think way more important and way more valuable than anything else.

SPEAKER_00 52:45

Thank you for having me.